The Long Way Back

Gina Pongetti: Welcome to the MedGym Podcast. I'm Gina Pongetti Angeletti, physical therapist, and someone who has spent a career in the gap between what an athlete's body can do and what it's being asked to do. This show is about health in the sport across three pillars: mental, physical, and training. The world championships in Rotterdam just wrapped up, and Emma Malewski the 2022 European Beam Champion, was back on that floor for Germany after a season of NCAA gymnastics at Clemson. Today, The sport worldwide and what it takes to be elite and collegiate all at once. Liz Crandall Howell is the co-head coach at Clemson with her husband Justin Howell. Before that, 13 seasons at Cal, a program they took from the bottom to national runner-up in 2024. They arrived at Clemson in May of 2025 for what was only the program's third season of competition and won the ACC title in year one. She was on the 1991 World Championships team, a US bar champion, and she's one of a handful of American FIG brevet judges. I am pleased to call her a peer and a friend for decades. Liz, welcome to the MedGym Podcast. Liz Crandall-Howell: Thank you, Gina. Really good to be here. I'm excited to talk about all of the wonderful things that have been happening in the gymnastics world. Gina Pongetti: The wonderful things. I love that. I love the positivity that we start out a podcast with. It's amazing. as a person, Liz, that wears the hat of coach and entrepreneur and being married to a coach and heading NCAA programs and a judge and a former athlete and choreographer. Did I miss anything? I don't know. you wear mom of yes, there Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: you go. you wear so many different hats within the sport, and it's really hard to take any one of those hats off at any one point in time. and the interesting we're gonna talk a little bit about Rotterdam, we're gonna talk about Emma, a little bit about your build at Cal and the transfer in. And I'm sure with all of the different hats you wear, you can have opinions on so many things. So let's get let's get Liz Crandall-Howell: I also wear the hat of opinionated. Gina Pongetti: You do and I do as well. Shocking Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: to the world. So here we are. world's just wrapped up. So outside of your role there where you went as obviously Emma's coach and supporter, what stood out to you this year at Rotterdam? routines, the quality of routines, D scores, how people looked, any moments or certain athletes that stood out to you? Liz Crandall-Howell: Well, one of the things, of course, that was a highlight is watching Skye Blakely, who is a current NCAA athlete who competed through this entire NCAA NCAA season go out there and win the world championship and show that you can do this, that you can train at the college level, continue to improve, pace yourself correctly, and then thrive on the elite stage. I thought that was a a really cool thing to watch. And if you've known anything about her story, which us we in the US have watched the struggles that she've had. So that was really cool to see her have that moment. Gina Pongetti: Yeah, and for those of our listeners that don't know, she was not age eligible for the 2020 Olympics. And then when it got pushed to 2021, they changed the rule and made her age eligible for 21. She hurt herself before the Olympics happened, and then we got to 2024 for Paris. She did go back and train again, which was amazing, and then tore her Achilles in training for trials. So it was yet another four years. I mean, we talk about this all the time, which is amazing when I talk with NFL players and NHL players and Liz Crandall-Howell: Okay. Gina Pongetti: people that have eighty-eight games a season and all these things. And if they're sad about something, the most they'll have to wait is one whole year to do something amazing again. Or even in a meat situation, they might have to wait Liz Crandall-Howell: Two. Gina Pongetti: four months. football has to wait, you know, six and a half days until they do things again. So to wait two sets of of well, three years for one and four years for the other to accomplish a big goal is crazy. And worlds allows that to happen for her. So we're two years after Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: her injury and she won it all. And Achilles repairs, hard, hard to come back from. And as you know, Liz, we talk all the time from a sports med perspective, it's a big trend in college gymnastics for a plethora of reasons. Just off the cuff, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: why you think Achilles tears and issues in college tend to be trending? and then I'll give you my opinion too. Liz Crandall-Howell: I think that one of the most difficult things when it comes to training in the NCAA is this block of time in the summer where we cannot require any training. And so from the time that they're finished competing in April to the time that they come in and start training in a required even eight hour period in either the tail end of August or the beginning of September, depending on when your school starts, we can't require any training in in that. full four month gap. And the periodization of being able to bring them back into plyometric activity and doing enough to prepare their body to come out and start tumbling again it with actual gymnastic skills is something that that has to happen in order for them to do their gymnastics safely. And they can't just pick right back up and start doing your Chankos, you know, like tip Gina Pongetti: Right. Well, and let's talk about timeline for college, right? So January is when everything starts, but December, you essentially have to be performance ready. So, or November even, and you're Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, or or November. Yeah. Gina Pongetti: being essentially allowed to do that September, October, maybe part of November. So you're 10 to 12 weeks in a ramp up phase, assuming that although the summers are not mandatory, Liz Crandall-Howell: Also, not every school, you know, has the ability to support them through a summer training program. There are many places still where they're they either don't have access to facilities during the summer or summer school isn't funded so that they can't be there and they have to find somewhere to train. and so if you're a Gina Pongetti: Right. And some of them leave their home gyms and don't want to go back reason. Right? Correct. Liz Crandall-Howell: Or their parents don't live there anymore and they don't have a gym to go to. It's just so so it it doesn't make it super easy if if the college doesn't have a program that they have a place to go to and train facilities, recovery trainer, etc., during that gap to make sure that they stay on track and are prepared to hit the ground running when we hit September. so I think that's Gina Pongetti: Yeah, and the patience, the the story of the Achilles is about patience, right? So that that Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: track that you create for them over those 12 weeks is you want to really get into things two weeks in and people want to start hard tumbling Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: and they're like, I got it. And you say, Nope, we have to follow the build. You just Liz Crandall-Howell: You just have to know. Yep. Gina Pongetti: you have you have to follow the science. And speaking of science, I mean you have an amazing sports med team and I work closely with Nolan and obviously the MedGym Sports Med course that happened in May, where we had over 30 of the NCAA trainers and sports med staff come and get certified in just more awareness. One of the biggest conversations that we had there was all of the things that the universities are doing for prevention purposes, for Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: mitigation. So making sure that we're strength testing and power testing and getting data on the athletes so that even if Liz's plan has said that we are going to do hard routines by Thursday. If Liz sees data from Wednesday that they're not ready, you can make an educated decision that we're the seventh weekend potentially to season and the data says that you're not jumping as high, you're fatigued. Let's maybe not do hard landings today. So how at Clemson and when you were Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: at Cal andor in your personal life, how how is sports science, how has it helped you working with someone like me and Nolan, et cetera, to to get information on athlete readiness, even if they're telling you that they're fine, what data do you use to determine if they actually are fine? Liz Crandall-Howell: Well, I think that one of the things that has brought us success, especially in their health and wellness, is that Justin and I are both super curious about a lot of things. And you know this because I'm constantly bother bothering you, asking you a lot of questions. Gina Pongetti: Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: I read a lot, watch a lot, and I think that one of the biggest gifts that we had, I know this sounds nuts, but During COVID, we had this very large off time that everybody in the gymnastics world who thought we needed to train all these hours all the time had a bit of a panic, my gosh, we've been off. How are we gonna get ready to go into a season? And it forced us to be really mindful and really careful about bringing our team back. We didn't get to start training until the third week in October of 2020 for the 2021 season. And our number one goal was and fear probably was to make sure that that our athletes were healthy, that we were, that by no means would we fall into the trap of feeling like we had to be ready as soon as they said go. and that we were gonna be they were gonna get ready when they're ready and that we were gonna come commit to really watching how they felt every day, listen to them give us feedback. at that time at Cal, it was really a powerful thing. We we did RPEs with with our strength and conditioning coach every day. the girls would come in, they'd do a survey. Gina Pongetti: Those stand for rate of rate of perceived exertion tests. So they're post tests saying we just did a workout. We think it should have been this hard, but how hard did it feel for you to do? Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, and it gives and there's so many different items, like what what is their school stress? What is their sleep? How is their hydration? What is their soreness? Where is their stress coming from? they the the stress part rated school, athletics, other, you know, different things. Yep. Gina Pongetti: Personal life. Sure. Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: And they color we these were color coded. So like we could get a snapshot of looking like, okay, we've got, you know, half our teams in the red. What's happening? You know, just like a like a good Gina Pongetti: Right. Well, in addition to in addition to science though, right? In addition to Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: are do you are are you putting out less jump height in numbers? And even though you think you feel fine, if you think Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: you feel this fine, but your numbers are saying that you're here, your perception of your fatigue is off. And that delta is a super scary place to live in. That's even scarier sometimes than a coach saying that you're not fine, but your numbers are testing well because Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: One of them is a lack of confidence with the data. And the other one is you're confident enough in your body and maybe not in tune with it enough, where the data says Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: you're only jumping at 80%. We are not putting double layouts on the floor today. but coach, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: I feel fine. Yes, but the Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: thank you for your RPE rating. And I know life is great and your personal life is great and your boyfriend's great and everything, but the numbers say that you're pooped. Correct. Liz Crandall-Howell: Your force plate testing is not looking like you're recovering quickly from the lift you did on Tuesday. Or or whatever we're doing in the gym. Yes. Gina Pongetti: Correct. And so now we are gonna change our plan. Yeah, exactly. And we we talked a lot, and obviously your team is is great to work with, but we talked a lot about most colleges, and this might come as a shock to you. I don't know if we actually had this conversation after the course, but some of them are only doing twice a year force plate and exertion testing. Liz Crandall-Howell: okay. Gina Pongetti: it's great. and then some of them are doing it at the beginning of the year and they just want to make sure that you got stronger, almost like to say, congratulations, strength people. but no one is actually doing it in in my opinion, when it matters. You have to have a base of when you're healthy. So we know if you do hurt yourself, where we have to get you back to. But we also want to see every single week if you've dropping Monday through Friday. Again, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: I will reiterate if you're a good team and you go into postseason. You could be doing 16 weeks in a row with maybe a week or two off. And since college Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: teams can't have 30 people on them, you don't get to just say, Hey, you're gonna compete every other week. so that's Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. We don't have we don't have load management usually. it would be great if we Gina Pongetti: No, it's just hey. Liz Crandall-Howell: did and you and you you do when you can, but it's just not realistic to be able to do that all the time. Gina Pongetti: Well, and some meets are on a Sunday followed by the next week on a Friday. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, yeah. Gina Pongetti: sometimes you're you have the NFL challenge where you have a game on a Sunday and then a Thursday night game or or something like that. So, which I think is great. Transitioning quickly into the amazingness of Clemson's recovery space, which I know, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: in all of the decisions that you had to make with where you were gonna find your next home, I Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: I do know that about you and that health and wellness and safety and resources was something that was really important for you. And what a beautiful center that that you have there. And things can be as gorgeous as they are if you don't use them. And I know that you guys use all of the stress management tools and the ability for recovery and nutrition and everything. So will you tell me just a little bit about and for people listening, picture a pie in front of you and everyone's going to have their own opinions on what matters. And then science might have an opinion on what should be weighted higher. And every week something is different. But you have Technical coaching, you have the mental ability to Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: coach elite athletes. You have, as Liz and Justin both have, the ability to understand how to inherit a potentially broken, mentally, physically stressed out, elite, right? And and how to transition them into a very different team, positive focused environment. You have nutrition, you have sleep, you have the the academic load, and then there's treatment reactivity-wise, and then there's recovery. Proactive. So in this big pie chart, everybody's pieces are gonna move every single day. I want you to talk a little bit about how you balance that big pie in the limited amount of time that a student athlete has, not a high schooler living with their parents where all their chores are done for them, but when you get to college, that big piece of pie, how do you manage where you will choose to encourage your athletes to spend time? Liz Crandall-Howell: So I'm going to backtrack just a little bit when it comes to the data. Just we touched upon the force plate testing. But like another thing that I think is really important on the front end that kind of will lead into the recovery and what they need, because for everybody it's different. But like we blood test them right away when they come in. They get blood tested periodically throughout the year so that they're looking at what their vitamin D levels are, what their iron levels are, so that we know right on the front end what What are we looking at? Where are we going to need to give some extra support? and then we do the force plate testing, that science, that part of it. And then on top of that, as we're, you know, talking with them on a day-to-day basis about how they're feeling, where their stress is, that even like another piece of the pie is having individual meetings with them, just to check in, 15 minutes. How are you doing? How's school? How's everything else? It's just like a way for them to have. a little bit more of a platform to talk about this is stressful or this is going great. And just that release for them, like that being able to communicate, is something that brings down their cortisol levels, brings up their overall wellness. And then we identify areas where we could be more supportive. Like maybe there's something we're missing, but wow, we can't know if you don't tell me. So like even that that back and forth teaching them how to communicate is a huge piece of how we incorporate wellness. later because we know what they can what they need or what they're not getting or what we can ask them. Are you doing? How are you sleeping? Gina Pongetti: Right. I'm glad you raised this point, Liz, and we can go back if we were to piece this together. there are probably 15 things in a perfect world that you would test on people, and and you hit most of them, right? So Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: valve testing is your force plate testing, what you can manage, max testing for lifting, power Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: production, blood work, not just blood work to see if you have sickle cell anemia or something, but actually where where are your inflammatory markers? Did we miss a thyroid condition? Are we doing things? five or six of the schools that were at the course said they do blood work one time, freshman year. And as long as everything looks fine, then unless there's a problem, we don't do Liz Crandall-Howell: Okay. Gina Pongetti: it again. Yeah, it's great. and we had a mix of D1 through D three there. So this is not just underfunded, not gymnastics focused schools. This is a plethora of the top 10 all the way through 82, right? So we also can do DEXA scans, and that's really controversial. And some schools do them, but let me tell you, there is a science to the fact that fitness leads to better health. And as long as it's approached positively, seeing what your muscle, fat, bone, water life ratio is through a scan in order to see if you have the same amount of muscle tone on you when you're going through changes with estrogen and estradol and all testosterone and all of the things is really important. And as long as it's done well, it's important. that baseline testing, some of it's done front loaded freshman year. Some of it is done annually. And as you said, some of it needs to be done mid-season and beyond. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep, yep. Gina Pongetti: And then also in these 15 minute meetings and these touch points with them, in addition to maybe what sports pysch gives you feedback on if they're worried, they can be ordered on a PRN basis as well. Someone is experiencing Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: fatigue and you think they have reds and they just think that they're sad and you're like, nope, you're underfueled and you're not doing what you need to. Let's redo some testing. So those meetings are so important for them to be honest with you, but they also know what they get. With with you and Justin, is that something will be done about it if there's a concern that's raised. It doesn't fall Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: on deaf ears. Liz Crandall-Howell: And back to the the DEXA piece of it and gathering data. I went through elite gymnastics. I had a lot of pressure around body image. I did not have the healthiest mindset going into college that I kind of had to fight through it on my own. And it's a I think it's a lifelong journey. I don't think it's a one thing fixes it and then you stop. thinking about it ever, I think that it's it's always ongoing and work that you have to do for yourself. But I think that, if we call it the the ugly monster of of the self-loathing that can come from somebody making you th be over concerned about body image, you can't just put the monster in a room, shut the door and act like it doesn't exist anymore. And Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: sometimes I feel like ignoring the data isn't it's not helping them get better. there is a there is a space where you have to be able to comfortably look at that data and know this means I need more muscle. This means I'm lacking water. Yeah. And so the Gina Pongetti: Right. But that comes with education though. And that that Liz Crandall-Howell: more we can talk about the education and explain to them, and they're smart, like these athletes that are hungry for more information, usually, just like you and I were and are Gina Pongetti: Right? Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: now as professionals. They if you cannot if you can explain to them the why this is gonna help you and this is for your good, 99% of them are gonna say, yep, I absolute like I get it. I get and and maybe if we shifted our thinking a little bit more that direction, we could actually knock out some of these things on the front end or earlier than them holding on to it for a long time. Gina Pongetti: Well, knock It's very different than saying to someone, here's what your body is made of, here are your current Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: nutrition choices. We have All of these options to help and support you. Maybe you came from a household that didn't cook as much protein or wasn't as healthy. Well, guess what? Now we do. So now I'm not gonna make things for you. It's the the adage of clean a kid's room or teach them how to clean it themselves. It gets Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: cleaned in either stop, but it doesn't continue. And so teaching them that what they're putting in their body, being scared of carbs is a huge college issue. I talk to kids about Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: all the time because they think. They're gonna put weight on. And I said, You guys are working out so much and growing and stress and everything, you have to have good macros. So I agree with you that when the proper people who are educated enough to to teach it and the athletes are Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: in the mindset that it's for health, performance, and wellness, it it can be amazing. over 50% of the people in the course and in the survey that we did. said that they are by university demand not allowed to speak to their athletes about it. It has to go through Liz Crandall-Howell: Hmm. Gina Pongetti: sports psychology. And for good or bad, I think if you're just because you're an AT or a PT doesn't mean that you know how to talk about it. So I think that that's lovely as long as your university has a supportive program where nutrition, psych, and coaching have conversations together. Liz Crandall-Howell: we have our nutritionist, our mental performance coach, our strength and conditioning coach, academic advisor, and all of our staff meets together biweekly. Like we're all in the same room and we're talking about like every single one of them and what they're dealing with, what they need, what are the flags right now, what's going well. And Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: so because also none of those things individually live in a vacuum of just the nutritionist or just Gina Pongetti: Correct. Liz Crandall-Howell: just mental performance. They're all interconnected. Gina Pongetti: Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: And so within what is allowable for them to talk about, it's really powerful to have everybody in the room and going, yep, I know. Susie's got this test coming up. She's been super stressed. Whatever. I'm noticing these Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: things. The strength and conditioning coach going, Yeah, the jump numbers might be off or like she's that the workout was harder Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: than it was for everybody else. What is happening? I'm noticing it when we're in spin, whatever I'm looking at at heart rate. And looking at whether or not their heart rate numbers, their recovery spikes aren't what they should look like. And so all of those things. Gina Pongetti: Right. But this is Liz, you're you're an anomaly, right? You're and and as much as I work with so many NCAA coaches, so for those of you listening, I love most of you as well. But for those that just don't choose to educate themselves on these things, that's fine also, as long as you have a team around you that knows it. And although Liz is not an expert in any one of these things, the aw Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: just just like I am not either, the awareness of it and knowing when to refer and how to talk. is so important because things living in a vacuum where you see your own sport psych, you work with your own this, you do your own this. Well I told Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: the coach and then the strength coach is like, we're gonna hit it today. And the athlete's like, I just talked to Justin about how I'm tired. And they're like, well, why didn't you guys speak? That should never happen. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: you know, athlete autonomy is huge in college and you have to agree and allow everyone to talk. And as long as you're in a supportive environment, that agreement to have those team conversations should be the default. Although Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: I do agree that allowing no means no, where you don't want people to speak to each other is also the right of an athlete. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Pongetti: it's the job of the coach and the university to create a really positive, supportive environment where the athletes feel comfortable talking. And this is the issue with the NGBs throughout the world, where we just talked about like implicit bias with like a college football medical person. releasing there's an internal stress of your constituents and sometimes you know that just has to be mitigated and so I love I love that. your pie moves every day and it moves after you have this conversation. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep. you can always say, I would love to be the best support that I can. What are you comfortable sharing? Gina Pongetti: That's a wonderful way to say that. Liz Crandall-Howell: That like that opening the door to say, I totally understand that you don't need to to tell me anything that you're not comfortable telling me. I hope Gina Pongetti: Correct. Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: that I can be the biggest support I can in order for for you for me to be able to do that. Whatever you can tell me would be helpful, but but you do what you need to do to feel like you're in your in in the safest space possible. Gina Pongetti: That's fantastic athlete respect and autonomy without guilt. And I think a great response to some athletes would be, Liz, I'm just having some personal struggles. I wanna let you know that I am talking to our psych and for the Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: next week or two, if I'm a little out of it, please, you know, pull me back. And that's not all the details. That's not spilling their guts in front of you with a box of Kleenex, but that's enough information for you to be smart. It's just like I I Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Gina Pongetti: I can't tell you if you're ready to do a an Amanar if you don't tell me your shoulder's hurting you. there you can you can only do with what the information that you're given. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep. And I might then make a different choice about that particular athlete's load through practices for a given period of time and just have have a heightened awareness about what might be needed. Just that little snippet. They don't have to tell me anything other than, I'm experiencing some stuff that's a little bit hard right now. Great. I got it. I got you. I'll keep an eye out. and and Gina Pongetti: And how that how that affects one athlete just not talking and being mute and then you think they're mad at you, but that's just them pulling in versus another athlete that might go to pieces on decision making. So when when they say, Liz, should I, you know, do this skill today? And then it you don't trust that they know enough about themselves and you might have to step in and say, Honestly, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: I think we should be done today, not in a mean way. I don't want you to to hurt yourself. the power in that is amazing. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: kudos. I love it. I love that we talked about the academic side, sports psych, the data, mental performance, nutrition. Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: We yeah. I know you want to get to the arc. I was gonna get I'll get to the arc stuff. I know I kind of like circled around it, but Gina Pongetti: Athlete Recovery Center. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: yes, the athlete recovery center. And the one thing that I wanted to talk about that that you talked about autonomy and how to that you can't always tell them what to do. They have to be able to make the decisions themselves to do it. So one of the really cool things about the Athlete Recovery Center is none of what happens in there is CARA. It is not anything that is required. That Gina Pongetti: Nice. Liz Crandall-Howell: everything that happens in the Athlete Recovery Center is RARA their choice on their own time. And the whole point around that is to teach them like, yes, these are all the resources that we have for you. This is what they do. This is how this one can help you. But you we're not going to make you do it. In order for it to be effective, it has to be something that they're choosing to do. And that Gina Pongetti: Yeah, because if it makes you more stressed to go in and sit in the vagus nerve stimulation chair, then it counters the fact that you're there when you're stressed about it. So exactly. Exactly. Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, it's just one more thing on their list of things to do. and what's awesome about our team, first of all, we're we're really close. Like it's literally right across our parking lot. So fantastic for us. We also, you know, our Gina Pongetti: Access. Liz Crandall-Howell: our training rooms in the gym, so that's also really great. So we have our hot and cold tubs and all of our cupping and all of the treatment, everything is right here. But then across the parking lot, they've got red light therapy. They've got dry float, they've got wet float, they've got cryo, they've got e every Normotech that they would need. They've got sleep pods that are warming that have have some red light therapy in them as well and infrared. So Gina Pongetti: Sure. I think it's important for listeners to understand, there are three proximities that are important. So your training gym and then an ATPT will have their space within the gym. But sometimes their main space where they spend non-practice time could be in the football stadium or in another aspect of the university. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: And then some schools have their own recovery space, like Oklahoma does. But then some schools also have recovery space for all athletes, which again, if gymnastics isn't by the big rev sports like basketball, football, hockey, they could be in a different space, which is one more barrier for them to say, Well, I'm not gonna go all the way to gym Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: and then to a class and then all the way back here and then to so that proximity and I Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: it sounds crazy, but that means so much more compliance and stress-free compliance. Liz Crandall-Howell: It is. And so it when where their where their weight training facility is and dining hall, there is a secondary or a smaller athlete recovery center as well. And so, but I mean I call it smaller, but in there there are more red light therapy beds in that facility. That's where the the larger cold tub, hot tub hydro pools are. so they have everything but cryo in both locations. which is amazing. And so, like you're saying, for convenience, everything's built for them to be able to access in the most convenient way possible for their day. So that when they're choosing to do it, it's not a chore, it's not another thing that is hard to get to. because Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: we want them, we want them to understand and to buy into that these things are going to help you. and Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: sometimes. 30 minutes in the sleep pod, in the warming sleep pod with infrared is going to set you up better for the app for the study session that you have in an hour from now because you've actually had a time to decompress from a practice. Take some time for yourself, reset, do your imagery, whatever it is that you want to do, listen to music, when Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: you're in there so that your mind is clear when you go over to your study session. Now you're probably in a better space to actually absorb the information you're gonna study than you Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: were. Had you just run from thing to thing to thing to thing? Gina Pongetti: And so I Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: think it's so important to educate them on what there is to offer and let the athletes make choices with your suggestions. Liz Crandall-Howell: Uh-huh. Gina Pongetti: And you know, Liz, you can say, you know, I think right now, although you're tired, You're not aerobically tired. Your muscles are overworked. So let's focus on that for the next couple of Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: days. I think the go go back to the nutrition side too. I mean, the the whole buffet concept is amazing. just because Liz Crandall-Howell: Well, yeah. Gina Pongetti: it's available also doesn't mean you need to eat it. So, I mean, my goodness, they could have everything from yogurt to chicken to steak to whatever. And it's amazing to make your macro choices, but you have to also have to Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: choose within that what's best and healthiest. What do you need? Liz Crandall-Howell: do you need? Yeah. and and another a piece of that too that's also convenient is nutrition staff is in the strength and conditioning facility as well. So they're right there Gina Pongetti: Fantastic. Liz Crandall-Howell: and have their shakes whatever right when they come out, like make smoothies for them right when they come out of weight. So if they need something, like if they're deficient in some, you know, say it's this person needs more protein, they're trying to put muscle on or whatever, then they, then their shake is built for them. Gina Pongetti: Or even an iron deficiency or a B twelve metabolic boost. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep, that that shake has what they need to be able to get what they which is just like it's right there for them to be able to do it. They still have to choose. Gina Pongetti: Okay. So for all the people listening, all the people listening that might have kids who are level eights and might not have the Clemson princess treatment, I will tell you that you can also do this on your own But we can do base blood work on you. We can look at your your macro microcycles of training and we can say that you maybe are gonna do a core power protein shake because it's high and a B12 pill or something, right? So it doesn't although this all people are like, we don't have the money, my kid's not gonna be a D1 athlete. This is a useless conversation. It isn't. This an aspect of this can be done at home on your own through actual food and eating real nutrition, in addition to supplementation if you need it, as long as we have baseblood Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: work to see where you are. And if you're ever fatigued, we do it again. Because what is that fatigue coming from? Is it a it do we need to look at your HRV on your nighttime sleep monitor? Do do We look at the caloric burn. Are we there's so many things to look at? It can be done without your knight in shining armor handing Anna the perfect shake with her name on the side of it, which is which is Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: brilliant if you can, but you can also do this on your own. It just takes choice. I promise you that the busyness of you making food and helping your kids make good choices is easier than the doctor visits that come when you don't. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Well, and the sadness that they have when they end up with maybe some sort of deficiency that could have contributed to an injury or they didn't reach their goals because they're tired all the time and they don't know why they're tired all the time and they're frustrated. those things are all workable. And then optimally, we coach gymnastics, but we're we're hoping that we are developing healthy human beings who when they're when they are done with gymnastics. are going to carry all of the things that they've accumulated from this sport and move into life as healthy human beings who can advocate for themselves, who can make good choices, who have Gina Pongetti: Making their own choices. Yes. Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: learned about what makes them as a as a human operate at a at the highest level. we we hope that your eliteness, Gina Pongetti: Right. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: we're we're trying to teach them to be one day better. And what that means is intentionally looking for ways that you can take the gifts that you've given, been given and level up each day. no matter what that looks like. Gina Pongetti: One day better is love it. It is, it's been your motto forever. We I use it with my patients at home, crediting, of course, Liz Crandall Howell. but it is, it's an amazing way to think about things. That that triggered just a little bit for me of the direct versus indirect injury lead. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: let's just say you're really tired, your your ankle fracture or your tailor OCD can be a product of you not being. up on your nutrition as much as possible if your sets aren't as high and you're still trying to do a skill that you think one more is gonna do and you keep landing short, a that's indirect over time. A direct would just simply be calcium, vitamin K, vitamin D, and the trifecta that that is, and Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm. Gina Pongetti: is someone more susceptible to a stress fracture or not. And so there are the the bigger picture of this is is super important. So All right. Well, now that we have gotten our athletes healthy, once they get there, let's talk Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gina Pongetti: a little bit about the balance of a one of your athletes. Let's talk a little bit about the amazingness of Emma. And by the way, again, congrats, Emma, for everything. And you know, we have an unprecedented number of people within the NCAA who are progressing Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: through elite, most of whom were Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: elite. prior to the NCAA, many, many less are going in as tens and then testing. but to Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: maintain that level is really difficult. Number one, because elites don't have meets every week. and number two, the skills that they're doing are maybe a little bit harder than what the NCAA code allows. And my favorite statement from people is well, then it's just like practice for them when they're at a meet. And I'm like, well, it's not, it's not like they're doing level eight skills. They're still doing really Liz Crandall-Howell: It's Gina Pongetti: hard skills. They just might be saving their fig skills for for Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Gina Pongetti: their their bigger meets. So talk to me about how you balance Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: that and coaching Emma. Liz Crandall-Howell: So some background on Emma. so she, like you said, was the 2022 European beam champion. She was one of the strongest athletes coming up in Germany through 2022, 2023. and then she had a series of injuries that just, you know, she would almost get back again, and then there'll be something else. She had a tear. Gina Pongetti: Well she missed Worlds and Paris, correct? Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: She missed, mm-hmm, she did. She missed worlds in 23 because of an ankle injury. And then she came all the way back, was doing great, and then had to have a shoulder surgery right before 24. So she hadn't done elite gymnastics really in two years. and we had been paying attention to her when we were at Cal, prior to 24, just and then she got hurt and she kind of like, you know, dropped off the radar for just what what is she doing? And we kept checking in and it's and it seemed like she was because she wasn't totally healthy maybe she was a little forgotten about and wasn't one of the top performers and I think that that really did a number on her with just mental health confidence can I do this and she always loved gymnastics and so she got herself healthy she started coming back she competed in some of the Bundesliga stuff last year and then competed in the World University Games and meddled on beam at the World University Games right before right before she got here. and so but coming in here, she was by no means all the way back to healthy. she hadn't done the leg events in quite some time. And, even even bringing her back to being at a college execution level that was high enough to be able to. To score well in the NCAA was something that we had to improve. these were goals that we, you know, saw as things that we were gonna have to make sure we're casting a handstand, landings. Every single detail matters. And so when we talk about they might not be doing these, these are practice routines for them. I want to push back on that quite a bit because the level of execution. at the college level is currently higher, I think, than at any other level in gymnastics. from Gina Pongetti: And you know that, Liz, because you are a FIG judge. So this is not just coming from a couch coach saying, I I don't think or whatever. you Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Yeah. Gina Pongetti: know and have filled out both E score and D scores on panels. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Gina Pongetti: So Liz Crandall-Howell: And meets in college can be won and lost based on flexing your feet by the low bar going into a Jaeger. that that these are things. Gina Pongetti: Right, current currently college values e execution potentially more than than difficulty from make or break point in a routine. So as we go ahead. Liz Crandall-Howell: more than difficulty. Yes. And it much more mirrors what old the old Ten O system of Elite look like. and then there and there is a balance. We would like to continue to make it harder. However, our product and and what makes NCAA special is perfection. Like continually seeking for that level of perfection. And I think that showing the fans what that looks like and also celebrating the artistry that can happen in gymnastics. It it holds on to the best of of what was before and also makes the NCA its own specific product. Gina Pongetti: for the people that are talking about just a little bit of a code change in NCAA, not crazy. We don't want everyone trying Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: DTYs and hurting themselves. what's your thought on separating out just a little bit more doing rewarding doing harder skills? So it in the in the land of elite, I'm talking about tuck full ins, not triple doubles. I mean, so we're we're not gonna go crazy because that's not sustainable week after week after week. but just making it so that if people do a little that everyone in the world isn't just doing a full a Yurchenko full and not everyone Liz Crandall-Howell: Okay. Gina Pongetti: is doing a gainer, a gainer full or a step forward gainer pike off beam. And what are your thoughts on that level stepping up just enough so that instead of it being all execution and difficulty being about the same, that we still value execution and the execution might go down a little on average and then the teams that really do execute win and then lifting that D score, that aspect of it, Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: the values aspect of it just a little bit. What are your thoughts on that? Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Well, so one of the things, there's a couple things that are important to understand. So in college, we are allowed to change our rules every two years. So that's that's one piece is a rule change here. Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Pongetti: Right. And this past year, this past year at was a rule change year because you all were meeting when we were doing our course. Liz Crandall-Howell: And so then the other piece of it is is that we have to vote. So all D one, D two, D three schools. All conferences have to vote through the package, which so the rules committee puts forth a package of like these are the things that we would like to see change. Gina Pongetti: Mm-hmm. Liz Crandall-Howell: They put forth the package, and everybody has to vote on whether or not it passes. Without fail, every time the WCPC, which is the rules committee, puts out a package, it is harder initially than what passes. And there is a lot of conversation. Always about what where we can do exactly what you're talking about. Where can we raise the difficulty and continue to make our college sport evolve while also preserving perfection and the the high-level execution and also parity, wanting everybody to be able to, with this set of rules, compete at the highest level. And that it's still a great thing when you come into a competition and maybe a team that's always been ranked number one is is going against a team that maybe isn't as highly ranked, but if this team has a mistake, that this team can still come up and compete with them. So we want that excitement and it's a it's a delicate balance to figure out where that is. I think that one thing that is super funny, like not funny haha, but funny, ironic about the your the the Gina Pongetti: Our sense of humor is interesting, so yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: your the Yurchenko full. Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: is if we were to take a percentage of vaults that were done at the at the world championships last weekend, still the vast majority of the vaults that were being competed were a Yurchenko full or less. Gina Pongetti: and now we're gonna take the top eight teams, and almost none of them were doing Yurchenko fulls but in the world in general, the the the top in the world. I just think, you know, it's interesting. Why Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Gina Pongetti: do two release moves if you can do them in a bar routine when it's a risk to fall that one doesn't need if you don't have to? And do I wanna see somebody trying Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: a one and a half? I do. From a medical perspective, and you and I have had this conversation, sometimes the risk is not worth it. Because if if they are, if they're usually a an Amanar person or a double person and they downgrade to a one and a half, that's a different story. But the risk to right, the the risk to a full that upgrades, yes, and the risk Liz Crandall-Howell: It's a different it's a totally different vault and a different technique. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: to a person that Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Gina Pongetti: upgrades from a full to a one and a half, now you're grinding into the ground. And if you're really tired and if your block isn't quite so high because you're on week 11 again of the season and you land short, that's an ACL. It takes one. So I Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Right. It takes one. It takes only one. Gina Pongetti: if we were to do college and kids were only a you know there's guys had a a roster of 30 and kids only had to do four meets, that that's a little different because you have time to recover and make sure. So Liz Crandall-Howell: It's different. Yeah. Gina Pongetti: The I think the pieces if we're if we're doing this triangle where if you move one thing, the sides move are Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: the schedule, which isn't going to change anytime soon. valuing the audience and the the perfection aspect, and then doing Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: things that are just difficult enough where there is some separation to giving someone Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Pongetti: the ability to even try it, because otherwise, why would you not, Liz Crandall-Howell: And Gina Pongetti: right? Liz Crandall-Howell: I would say that there is an issue that I I think parallel that we've got a parallel of of one thing that I don't necessarily love right now in both elite and NCAA is that we have created an execution system that is so stringent that it it doesn't encourage you to try really difficult things. Like in in college, if I've got somebody who can do a great full in. But maybe their knees are very slightly staggered in that full in. It's better for them to do a double pike, even though all of us know that that Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: level step up from doing a full in versus a double pike is huge. And so Gina Pongetti: Right. A perfect level A skill versus an imperfect level B skill shouldn't be so separated. Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, and if it is, then that double pike better be coming out with a flare in order to not Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: have any deduction. And that's where we have a problem. that it doesn't it doesn't match, maybe. And so you saw it. We all it discourages somebody with this is Gina Pongetti: So it discourages is what you're saying, people to to trying. Understood. Liz Crandall-Howell: and and I think that we made the joke. I I know that you and I talked about this last week. Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: just that that we have a situation or certain situations where things that we think are cool. evolving should be celebrated, Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: are being not only discouraged, but but so harshly discouraged that we're not gonna see it anymore. We've eliminated parts of gymnastics. And we and I know that I said to you, this is why we can't have nice things. Gina Pongetti: This is why we can't have nice things. So, so let's so let's then talk about the when we're talking about risk. And I think this is just something important that we need to talk about on this podcast because it's me. And and with safety, there is also a duty and an education component where parents that don't know gymnastics and kids that trust their coaches trust it when they say, Hey Justin, am I ready to do this? And the coach says yes. You don't think to yourself, Well, Justin's a really good coach. He knows what he's doing. He's really safe. So his yes means 10. But maybe a mid-level coach who's a level seven coach that was just randomly promoted is going to say yes. So I agree with the the execution deductions to an extent where I think Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: it should discourage people from being risky but it should also encourage you that if you're making slight mistakes, you should still be rewarded over someone that's maybe playing it a little safe. That comes down to good coaching. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Right. And we but co coaching coaching and and coaching education. Gina Pongetti: which we are attempting to reform and do more of throughout the world. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Yeah. I think that I I still it still feels icky to me when someone can win a competition with major errors. Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: like there there's gotta be a middle and I don't want to take anything away from anybody who's who's ever, you know, won or or not, but I do I do love that part of college gymnastics. And so going back to Emma's process a little bit. And and anybody, not just her, but anybody who's doing elite gymnastics and the NCAA. Being able to go up under pressure, like compete week after week after week, 15 weeks in a row, and attack every detail with that kind of mindfulness and being able to perform and execute with consistency at that level. Makes you more prepared, I believe, to compete at any level. Gina Pongetti: I completely agree with you. Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: And so the and the habits that they're picking up while they are executing at that very high level, it's like going back to teaching basics with with gymnastics. no one thinks, I I don't think that I ever got up to do a a Yurchenko or a full in or whatever, and I thought, okay, I'm gonna hurdle up, I'm gonna round off, I'm gonna be at this angle, I'm gonna do and I'm not thinking about the 15 things that probably built the full in as the athlete doing it. When I'm doing basics and drills in a round off back handspring layout in a hollow, picking my feet up, whatever the shaping is, that's when I'm building the f the fifteen things. So that when I go to do the big thing, I'm not thinking about that anymore. I can just go. And so there Gina Pongetti: Well, you look at stick stick percentages, Liz, is perfect. And that that's, you know, the the stick pr the the importance of the stick in the NCAA versus the people that give up the stick in in J O D Devo and or even at Worlds, you see so many people Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. I mean Gina Pongetti: just like, Mal, just take a step. And I'm like, You didn't need that step. What are you doing? And in the N C double A, you Liz Crandall-Howell: Well no. Well we didn't Gina Pongetti: give up your firstborn child to not take a step on your landing. I mean Liz Crandall-Howell: It's it's Gina Pongetti: it's Liz Crandall-Howell: there were so few sticks. they're just trying to land on their feet. they just Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: they just want to get the D score. And we talked a lot about just in coming up with routines and whatever for elite, net negative versus net positive. When you're thinking about an elite routine, if you're doing a D, you're getting four, but if you're losing six, you're net negative. And so there's Gina Pongetti: Correct, correct. Liz Crandall-Howell: this mindset that as long as you're net positive, it's fine. It's worthwhile to do it. there is no Gina Pongetti: But that goes back to do doing a skill where you're gonna step out of bounds. That could be equipment, that could be you not getting used to the world stage, whatever. Or it just could be that you didn't have enough time and training Liz Crandall-Howell: But it's Gina Pongetti: to perfect the timing for that. And the steps Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: are because you're doing something that that you're maybe not, you're ready for it. You're landing on your feet, you're you're not face planning, but you're not Liz Crandall-Howell: Or yeah yeah, what is ready? Gina Pongetti: you're not neuro ready for it. You are not over and over again with numbers and perfection trained that this is. This is where you should be and how you should land. So and I just look at our our vault Liz Crandall-Howell: The mastery Gina Pongetti: men's vault champion and you're just like, Well, that wasn't luck that he stuck like glue. That was how many times that he has done that and Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: valued that as opposed to take a step, who cares? So Liz Crandall-Howell: How much mastery do you have to be able to replicate something from muscle memory? And and Gina Pongetti: Right. Well, and you and I have talked about the creating of the elite. And the y your muscle memory should be free hip handstand perfect. It should be Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm. Gina Pongetti: blind change within 10 degrees. It should be it's the only way you know how to do it. And I remember, I mean, was Liz Crandall-Howell: Because that's the only way you know how to do it. And that y and you didn't move on until you had it. Gina Pongetti: you did not move on until you have it. We had Liz Crandall-Howell: Ha ha. Gina Pongetti: we have kids in my office right now from local gyms, and you know, you might know who you are, and that's fine. They're that The they're level nines and they can't do a press headstand. And I said, Well, you're you're doing full ends on floor or are you doing full outs? Well, I'm doing a full out. Okay, have you done a standing full today? Well, I can't do that yet. Okay. So are are so where where is the basic understanding that makes the more difficult skill better? And sometimes, you know, chuck and duck is not a good it's not a good idea. sp yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: Well. And then how do you prepare them? what does that look like? Knowing I can't do it's not realistic to say you're going to do 15 full-ins on the hard floor to be able to get this. What can you do? So, Gina Pongetti: Right. Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: where do from from my perspective? And then when we're looking at how we're building a training plan, what can we do to replicate what's going to happen? So, so For example, doing a lot of like base flip sticks, Yurchenko layout that you have to stick, because we know that if I'm creating this angle, I'm creating this block angle that creates this trajectory that is gonna create the angle of sticking, I am giving my body the muscle memory that is pretty much the same as it's gonna be on a bigger vault. If the vault's done correctly, it's gonna be the same. I'm teaching you how to drop. from this angle, from this high, from a depth jump, a depth flip, and the muscle memory of my feet coming down, eccentrically contracting and holding that position, I'm teaching it to do it. Gina Pongetti: Sure. And are you in a layout position versus a twist? And then if you add twists in, are you just doing jump full turns on the floor? And are you Yeah? Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. And I am twist. Yes. So how can I replicate that thing? So I'm giving the athlete the amount of repetitions necessary to replicate it without beating them into the ground because I know I can't do 15 of that thing without beating them into the ground. So thinking about I can get what I need. Like what do I need? What am I trying to accomplish? And then how do I get there in the safest, most effective, efficient way for them? Gina Pongetti: Beautiful sentence. I love it. That's my whole job. Trying to teach people that they didn't do that. And that's why they're injured and Liz Crandall-Howell: Same same. Gina Pongetti: in my office in the first place. so let's go. let's do like a rapid fire because these are fun. very quick answers. And I know they're fun for me, but when I'm Liz Crandall-Howell: They're fun for you. Gina Pongetti: on podcasts, they're really fun for me to answer too. So let's put some numbers on it. in an average practice, what is your stick hit and expectation for beam? Would you do a do five or stick f four or do three in a row? Or what's your what's a go to? Liz Crandall-Howell: I'll give you a yesterday, three in a row or make five max six attempts. Gina Pongetti: Fantastic. So you're putting a top on it for their overuse, but you're also saying if your brain says you need to do more, you're SOL because you had your chance and I'm not going to overwork you. Beautiful. Liz Crandall-Howell: I'm not gonna let you do more than your body needs. Gina Pongetti: Love it. How about Vault? Liz Crandall-Howell: Vault is a ramp up of combination of things. So if they have to do three of their comp vault, they're gonna do a combination of layouts, their base. So if their vault is a one and a half, base fulls, and then that many of their comp vault. And if they at any time tell Luke, like today I think I can do two, three, and one, they can take that total number of turns. It's all about total number of turns. So they can ebb and flow in that assignment for what they need around the total number of turns that they're allowed to take. Gina Pongetti: I I know that there's no reason for you to take my course because you're not medical, but if you were, and they're one of the things that we created and actually trademarked was like how you know how we have strength of schedule in the N the NFL. We now Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: have weighted value of exertion, right? So it's actually now. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: So say you're arching. Right. And back walkov worth one point or a bridge is one point. Now you're Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: dynamic. Back walkover is two points. Back handspring is three points. Okay. Well, Tkachev is like five points because it's really hard. A layout Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: on beam is five points, right? So in the course of a day, you just get 60 points. Feel free. Do whatever you want with them. And so if Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep. Work around your sixty. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: work around your 60. And so if you're a kid and say Liz says to you as an athlete, it's not the landing of your your full your tenko full that I care about. It's the blocking of it. We can block without landing for days and Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: then save the ankles. If my if your back is my worry and backhand springs feel fine but layouts don't and we just need you to try to go straight, then let's do backhand, backhand, backhand in triple series and just Get you so there's ways to work around things with the weightedness of what you want to avoid from a numbers Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Pongetti: perspective. And and that is just so important for people to understand. I love it. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep. I I've got one right now that that like even in the warmups. So say, you know, like we we still do back walkovers and and I that's a like a Gina Pongetti: Course you do. Liz Crandall-Howell: thing that people think that you can't do back walkovers. And I I don't I know you and I have talked about it. So podcast world's gonna Yeah. That like Yes, how. Gina Pongetti: No, we've talked about this, so let podcast world of med gym understand this. No, you you need to do bridges and cobras and walkovers unless you are an athlete that literally just jumps up and down and does Palma horse. Other than that. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. How am I going to expect you to comfortably and safely jump through full range of motion dynamically in an arch if you can't hold a static position slowly? Right. So Gina Pongetti: i.e. pre flight on vaults, tapping on bars, everything. Liz Crandall-Howell: but if you were to have a if you have a back thing or a prior history of back stuff, we may say if the if the number is four and and we're well say I'm doing you've got four back walkovers and you're gonna have five flip-flops uphill to a panel. And then later I know we're gonna do we're doing routines and you're gonna have series. I will say, okay, I need five total things in the warm-up of the warm-up Gina Pongetti: Right. Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: things. You can spread that out however you want. you might do one back walkover and five uphill. Don't care. as long as we're hitting them and it you get to they get to choose where those numbers are. And if we need to cut them in half, as long as I'm getting something. in the area that's still gonna prepare them for the for the skill, I can work around how we're getting to that skill. And I can I'm I there's a lot of ways that I can make sure that you're prepared. I can eat like even some of them, like they haven't done backwogglers in so long, they put their feet up on a panel mat or something higher, or they're just doing bridge rocks with their feet up higher. But like I'm not gonna let you not like do a backhand spring if we're not doing anything that's gonna help prepare your body to do that backhand spring. Because you and I both know that ultimately if it doesn't hurt you today, it's gonna Gina Pongetti: It's not gonna work. Liz Crandall-Howell: hurt you eventually. Gina Pongetti: It's gonna hurt you eventually. That's one of my that should be a t-shirt that I think MedGem should make. If it doesn't hurt you today, it's gonna hurt you eventually. So I think putting Liz Crandall-Howell: It's gonna hurt you eventually. Gina Pongetti: your your J O or your Devo hat on with your coaching and and my coaching experience as well, in that you know, we have this two-year rule, and we just did great slides on this in from previous podcasts that we talked about. you can't expect a switch ring to be 180 if you don't have splits. You can't expect Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: Somebody to do a Tkachev if they don't have a really good free free hip or or a Hindorff. you're you can't expect a kip if they can't do a leg lift. Like there's things that that and you can't work on it in June to do it in July. Non-negotiables. And so it Liz Crandall-Howell: Non negotiables. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: you have to almost think two years in advance about what forms and body shapes and things that you want to do in order to get to a building skill, in order to get to the skill. Same with college, once you are. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: good enough to do the skill. You have to back up and do the basics that lead up to the skill to make sure Liz Crandall-Howell: Let's still build it. Gina Pongetti: that otherwise these these athletes are so smart and so strong and they've been doing this for d almost two decades, right? They will cheat. They will compensate. They will buckle their hips for a layout. They don't know they're doing it. Nope. Until the spondy says they are. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. And they don't even they don't even know that they're cheating. And the muscle memory by the time we see Yeah. Well, and that's another thing going back to the force plate testing that is really valuable or any of the other strength conditioning or strength testing that you can do is that you're gonna see where those deficits are that they don't even know about. And like even when coming back from an injury, that's super important. Like you're gonna see if your right leg is still dominating way more than your left leg. And that that's something. Gina Pongetti: Right. I think a a good a good example of that, which is really good for podcasts and good for college, also is on our force plates, we use all the vaulled equipment stuff. We absolutely love it. They're two separate force plates, right? So I can get left data, right data, I can get square Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Gina Pongetti: inch data, I can get initial takeoff landing, etc. So I can see if your push is the same, but you're landing 60-40, or if initially Liz Crandall-Howell: If you're eccentric is yeah. Gina Pongetti: when you land, you landed equal and then wow, your shins just collapsed on one side because there was no eccentric control. One of my Biggest things that we see a Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: lot is the crunched ankle, which is such a non-diagnosis of term for gymnastics, but you're essentially repetitively landing short. Could it be your Achilles complex is too tight, your calves don't work, you don't have glutes and hamstrings Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: for e-center control, plantar fascia, who knows? but eventually your talus starts to say owl because you keep jamming into it. So now we're Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: squatting and we're jumping and and we're like, well, their jump height looks great. Did anybody measure their ankles? Their ankles don't bend. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Right. Their dorsiflexion is non existent. Gina Pongetti: So if we need four doors inflection. So if we have if we need 45 degrees just to exist in life, you need 45 to go downstairs, FYI. And then in gymnastics, you need like 50 and 55. And if you land something a little bit not good where you're doing a double back and kind of stepping forward, you need like 65. Well, the kid Liz Crandall-Howell: Okay. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: that has 40, congratulations. You're still gonna get 65, whether you like it or not. So so many people are about force and about control and load. And they're and sometimes we miss the range of motion. And so it's about Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Gina Pongetti: it's not about the power you can produce. It's not about the range of motion. It's also about how you do it. Liz Crandall-Howell: It doesn't matter if you can't can get down low enough to take it when you take it's it's about being able to take the hit sometimes. It would be all ideal Gina Pongetti: You gotta take the hits sometimes. Yep. Liz Crandall-Howell: if if every single turn they took was perfect, but that that's not real. And so injury Gina Pongetti: Yep. But it's not read. Liz Crandall-Howell: prevention, we have to be able to put them in the positions and make them strong in the positions when something isn't going perfectly. And how do I tolerate Gina Pongetti: Absolutely. Liz Crandall-Howell: that when it's not going perfectly? And I I would say that like Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: the lack of compulsories. for a longer period of time, I think has made us weaker, less flexible in our feet. dorsiflexion is is something that I Gina Pongetti: I think I think Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: see a whole lot more of than I used to, like the the lack of the ability to be able to e keep their heels down in a squat. Gina Pongetti: one of the things that I I love when I'm in an audience and I'm just like me as a parent of an Excel daughter sitting and nobody knows what I do sometimes, which is awesome. And you know, they're like, gosh, this gym is just so good. But God, they're winning everything at level eight. They should just be nines. They're holding their kids back. And I'm like, no, that's proper gymnastics. That's that's what's gonna make kids really good. Cause you know, getting yeah, well, and it builds their basics. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Yes. It builds their confidence when they know they can step up and know they're yeah, when they but you when you can step up, raise your hand to compete and you're prepared, that it Gina Pongetti: Yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: then becomes how well can I do, not I hope I make it. That's Gina Pongetti: Yes. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: a huge shift. And w I feel like we're doing the right job, setting them up for success if that's our floor instead of the ceiling. Like That should be our standard is we want to set them up to go out and feel prepared to do well. Knowing sometimes they're gonna Gina Pongetti: So let's talk about Liz Crandall-Howell: mess up anyway, but but at least they were prepared to do well. They had all of the pieces. Gina Pongetti: They had all the pieces. That's a great transition to you getting all these kids from senior to freshman year. And that transition of I wanna make state, I wanna make nationals. Maybe you're getting kids from a gym that are chuck and go. And now you have to say, I know that you think you can do your your your layout whatever, but it's in a piked position or I know that you can do it Tkatchev but you're like a 50% hit rate. So we're not going to do that. So in the time that you spent at Berkeley, obviously b building right at Cal Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: over 13 seasons, what do you think the hardest thing for you to do when building what you wanted to stand for was in specifically who you looked for as a senior to have what it takes? Because You could have had a program and people are always gonna want to go to Cal and you're gonna get there. But how did you build the fact that people go, you have what it takes to go to Cal? How did you build that persona of the athlete that you wanted? And and you really took it from bottom to top in 13 years. And tell me a little bit about that, that build, that transition. Liz Crandall-Howell: so it goes back to the reason why we coach. really, and and probably the reason that it took us a little bit longer to go into college coaching from club. we love teaching. at the end of the day, we consider ourselves teachers. And yes, there's a there's a competitive aspect. We love to win too. Like, I get a thrill out of competition. I think it's awesome. but what I think is the thrilling part is seeing how somebody can be so committed to the process and and replicating the mastery, all of that that we talked about, like knowing that they've done all the work to improve themselves, and then being able to have the mindset to not make the environment of competition bigger than the process. that they can trust the process in going out there and doing being in front of people. That like really when you go in front of people, it's a celebration of the work that you've already done. By that point it should be a party. but Gina Pongetti: Right. So as opposed to an athlete that just wants to walk into a college where you're performing and and doing, you Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. We Gina Pongetti: have the athletes who are like, Liz, I'm I haven't met my potential yet. I'm I want to keep learning. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. So yeah. So we we ask the question of what like and find the athletes that think it's cool that when we say to them, and this is a regular thing, if you're doing the same skills when you graduate that you came in with, then we feel like we have failed. Gina Pongetti: Nice. Liz Crandall-Howell: And that doesn't necessarily have to be harder. That means we're exploring different, keeping it fun, keeping it fresh, that there's a curiosity and a passion for gymnastics. And That can happen with varying levels of what you've accomplished before you get to college. I think that Gina Pongetti: Right. I think that curiosity is important if you ever have to pivot too, right? If you can't arch because of an Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Well Gina Pongetti: injury or you can't arch because of something, you want someone that says, Teach Liz Crandall-Howell: Hmm. Gina Pongetti: me gymnastics. Let me learn a ginger instead of a Jaeger because I can't arch anymore. And Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. So yesterday, this is actually cool, a cool story because I've got somebody playing with Gabby's beam dismount of the side somi one and a half. And Gina Pongetti: yes, yes. Liz Crandall-Howell: people look at Gabby's beam routine that she was doing there at the end and like, my yeah. Gina Pongetti: Gabby Perea, by the way, who was a Cal for those listeners, yeah, who is one of my athletes from home Liz Crandall-Howell: Yes. Gina Pongetti: that became one of Liz at Liz's athletes at Cal. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yep. Who had prior injuries that are exactly, what Gina's talking about that limited some like her entire beam routine was different than anything that she did in club outside of she did a standing full that would that is amazing because it's like one of the most beautiful standing fulls I've ever seen in my life. and Gina Pongetti: Agree. Liz Crandall-Howell: and It was all about if she hadn't been curious though, if she hadn't been a person who wanted to get better and was not satisfied with just well, this is what I used to do and I can't do it now. So whatever. she was so driven to want to get better and do whatever it took to be at her best that we rebuilt a whole beam routine based on things that were best for her body. and so like when she started competing beam in college, that was a huge deal. Like that was it just For everybody, just watching the the process of, knowing where her pain had been, getting getting to that point. But that's just one example of that. But I think a pretty it's a pretty obvious one because so many of the things were different. And it ended up being, that's so cool. Well, it it was built that way because that's what was best for her body to be able to do. but yeah, I think that you you have to find athletes who are Totally open-minded. And it's okay that not everybody is that way. that's you're asked what what we would look for and what what helped us to create that. And still now, like that, that mindset hasn't changed. and one of the reasons that Clemson was an attractive place to go is because it also is in a place that we could continue to build. and Gina Pongetti: Well, three I mean, three years, three years in, nobody set no one set the standards for it being a rah-rah school or just a skill school or a this school. I mean, you can make it what you want because it's so fresh. So Liz Crandall-Howell: Whatever we want it to be. Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: going a quick question, a little bit of a transition to you as an ac as an athlete and then transition Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: back to your coaching. Ninety one worlds happened, and then college happened for you. There was a bit of a burnout. and of course this is a little bit of a sensitive topic, but I know something that you talk about often. How have you used that and what frustrated you and what mentally was very stressful for you? How have you used that experience to try to see and identify that in your athletes? And how has that changed and vastly improved and enlightened your coaching that you do today? Liz Crandall-Howell: I will say that I don't believe that I would be coaching had I not had a less than perfect experience towards the end of my elite career. And Gina Pongetti: I love it. Liz Crandall-Howell: the reason is because I came out of, you know, 91 worlds, that experience, and 92 Olympic trials, and and that just that year and having. In hindsight, knowing that there was a lot of things behind the scenes that were completely out of my control. But, as a sixteen-year-old, seventeen-year-old, I had no idea. Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: but I came out of the process of not making an Olympic team, you know, and moving away from home at twelve, living away from my family, my six siblings, you know, that I didn't grow up with. which is, you know, that's a that's a big deal. Like it sh it's not lost on me, like the things that I've gone through in my life that I have realized how much I missed, but but feeling like that sacrifice for my family was all for naught. That like I didn't do the thing that I thought that I was supposed to do and that I had failed and it felt I failed everybody. And then at the end of it, like I couldn't even look at it at the time and think, my gosh, I was really good at at these things. Like Gina Pongetti: Right. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: I I thought that I suck. I'm a failure, I sucked, I've disappointed everyone, and that's that. And so going to college, I definitely went through a bit of a self-sabotage my first couple years. And when I got to the other side of it, I was it was like I was trying to take myself out for whatever reason, like find a different path, or I didn't feel worthy, like just a lot of like things not feeling good about myself. and I took this break and it felt like an eternity break. when I think about it in my mind, it was like I took six months off. I really took six weeks that I was home Gina Pongetti: Right, right. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: and home from school. And I'm like, I'm not going in a gym. I'm not looking at gymnastics. I I started doing all these other kinds of workout things, just getting more into the fitness side of things, did some dance classes, ran, got on a bike, was outside, just all. Lots of different things. Started studying a little bit more about exercise physiology. And at the end of that six weeks, I thought, gymnastics is so freaking cool. Like what I learned from studying the other things is how amazing what we do is. And that the the if I had even been a level four and able to do level four gymnastics, that even being able to do that was a gift. And and like this many. Gina Pongetti: What's the perfect combination of aerobic, anaerobic flexibility, timing, mental fear? Liz Crandall-Howell: Whoa. And just and and being gifted in a way that some people aren't. Like everybody has gifts. And Gina Pongetti: Right? Right? Liz Crandall-Howell: whether it's math or communication or people, whatever, like I do think that like there is that part of the physicality and gymnastics. It's a combination of the things you talked about. Like that the fear doesn't matter. Like smart enough to understand what's happening, but a little bit. off enough in your thrill seeking that it does that you can beat know that you could die and not care. That there is something about that rush. I'm gonna beat it. And then Gina Pongetti: Well, d I don't know if you saw I don't know if you saw what Ellie Black just posted about how as she ages, Liz Crandall-Howell: No. Gina Pongetti: because she'd been around for a decade of of world championships, right? so many. And she said it's getting harder. And one of the harder things is that she's older and smarter and has a maturity to her that fear creeps Liz Crandall-Howell: Uh-huh. Gina Pongetti: in a little bit when you're not just, I don't want to say young and stupid, but when you're not just like, sure, let's try a standing full at the at the park on concrete. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. Yeah. But like the things that I learned in that period of time was that everything that I really loved about gymnastics and all the really cool stuff, I could have learned as a level four. Like it didn't take it didn't take me making that team or having this like really because it's it it's about a series of a couple of meets that could go different. but that that that series of meets that would woulda coulda shoulda been different or somebody else could have perceived it differently didn't change my process and it didn't change who I became along the way. and it was like this total shift in me about and even when I watch the Olympics now and it it's being an Olympian it yes there's the physical being there but but Being an Olympian is created in the process that it takes to get to that point. being elite is a how you show up, what you do every day in the process. you can be elite in in all of the things that you do, whether you're an elite in how it is defined in gymnastics. Who cares? That's just a set that's just a set of definitions Gina Pongetti: Yeah, but the getting the the getting there Liz Crandall-Howell: that somebody put on something. But the getting there, you can Gina Pongetti: Sure. Liz Crandall-Howell: be elite in all kinds of ways. And so that mind shift that happened for me then, it like freed me to go back into the gym and savor every single day that I had in gymnastics after that. it was just this whoa, I get to do this. And I think that and after that, Gina Pongetti: I love that, Liz. I get I get to do this. No one's making me do it. I'm not trying to prove something. My body is healthy Liz Crandall-Howell: Nope, this is Gina Pongetti: enough. I get to be here. Liz Crandall-Howell: And this is on my terms. And I was crushed when I had to stop doing gymnastics. If I had and got the ability to continue in a career, I would have taken I would have gone on that plan in a heartbeat. I would, I was not ready to be done. But there was no avenue then. I was a washed up old person at 17. I was a veteran. Gina Pongetti: Right? I was too. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: go going for that team. And I f I felt like I was a grandma at seventeen. it just wasn't even a thought process in your mind that anybody could keep going after that. Gina Pongetti: And there aren't the circ the circ options and the performance options and so many neat dinner Liz Crandall-Howell: Well Gina Pongetti: theaters where people are on silks and like it was just, well, you're not competing at this level anymore. Either go coach it or you're done. Liz Crandall-Howell: And and there wasn't the science around you can and this is how. It can look different. Yes. And that like Gina Pongetti: Right. You mean aging in the sport a and and staying healthy. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: and underestimating what like how well prepared you are still from the work that you did when you were 13, 14, 15, 16 years old. Like you've put in the time for that and done Gina Pongetti: Right. Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: more numbers at that age so that when you're 18, 19, 20, 21, you don't need that anymore. Your time Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: is is better spent preparing your body to be able to do it. and and that's something that weighs in heavily to the elite NCAA conversation. But yeah, I think that, I changed my major after that. I went from a communications major to an exercise science major. and I was just like in it, intrigued, curious. And and I just yep. And that's probably when I knew I would coach. Gina Pongetti: Yeah. And what a path. What a path. I think it's and nothing against the people who win golds and speak for a living Liz Crandall-Howell: No. Gina Pongetti: or or those that are that coach other coaches or that speak about what it took to to get there. But the difference in the people that almost make it and those that do, you've still done 15 years of day in, day out giving up friends, try that's the tenacity. The falling once and being third versus first changes someone's life, right? And or Liz Crandall-Howell: Okay. Gina Pongetti: make being eighth or second alternate versus not, you know, but the difference in how talented those two people are is so minuscule. The work that's been done and the lessons that are learned, Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. Well, or any of the situations involved, even a even a training situation, or or what does this gym look like versus that gym? Or like how much nutrition did you have going on? How were the people around you in supporting the little things, the pie that we talked about? Like the pie, lots of people are talented. Lots of people are equally talented. But it's who who are the people that fill out all of the pieces of the pie the best that make the difference when you're competing at at the very, very elite level and when you're a kid without Gina Pongetti: Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: a lot of control of those things, I didn't even know what the pie was. Gina Pongetti: Hey, I had I had banana milkshakes as recovery drinks. My dad, when I got home, bless his soul, would put vanilla flavoring, vanilla like Dominick's. Remember Dom, like signature foods, vanilla ice cream and bananas in a milkshake because he read somewhere. My parents weren't athletes. My dad was a war veteran, but not an athlete. And he read somewhere Liz Crandall-Howell: Ha ha. Gina Pongetti: that bananas were what I needed and I needed good fats when I got home. I mean, there Liz Crandall-Howell: Need some magnesium. Gina Pongetti: I'm I'm not sure that that was the best. food for me to have when I got home before going to bed. You know, but it is what it is. And there's there's people that have to drive their siblings around and can't spend an hour in a on Normatex. And I mean there there's just so many different Liz Crandall-Howell: Well yeah. Gina Pongetti: levels to that pie. Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah. And so I I think what I learned that was probably the most powerful from all of that, that maybe I wouldn't have been motivated to learn it, is that the gifts that I was given, it wasn't necessarily it probably maybe wasn't my purpose to have this label or that label on what I was supposed to do, but that it was to take the gifts that I had to be able to see them and appreciate them and then use them to grow. to get one day better and to help other people and to continue to help myself take those things and go, okay, where are the areas that I can improve? And then to to actually realize the things that were like I get to do this. Gina Pongetti: all right. Transitioning just a little bit to obviously this kind of our our last little section to your love for the sport enough that you wanted to give back to it from a judging perspective, which I think is very interesting because a lot of people go Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Yep. Gina Pongetti: into judging because they want to make it. Harder and they want to be harsh and they want to set standards. And truly, from the bottom of my heart, I believe that you do it to be that approachable judge and to be able to say to people, I know that this is off, but if you just did this, it would make it better. it helps your coaching, it helps everything. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: we have a massive judge shortage right now in in the US. It is very difficult in the world to become a brevet judge and there is having experience as an athlete is helpful and within the US there's a path obviously to becoming that. So you talk a little bit quickly about how you became a judge, why you still love doing it and being in the mix and how it helps your coaching. Liz Crandall-Howell: so I tested for the very first time that I was able to test after college. And Kathy Kelly, who was the women's program director for USA Gymnastics at the time, had been on me. from from the time I was in college. you're gonna judge, right? this is something that you should do. we really think that you should judge. and she knew that I loved seeing even I think that even things that I didn't know about myself, but you know, later on knew like the biomechanics and like the details of the sport. And I think that it was easy to see that I was passionate about the sport, that I loved I loved cool stuff. Like I loved different tricks and the artistry and then that part from a very young age. but so I tested for that for the first time. I graduated college in 97 and I tested the right after 2000. but my reasoning for wanting to do it was that I always wanted to be somebody sitting in the chair that knew what the athletes had been through to get to that point. And to be impartial when I'm sitting there. I want like and I from and I've judged from beginning compulsories all the way through before I started coaching college, I I judged dev all the way through, did all of the all of the meets. And I felt very much like if I'm gonna do this, I need to participate in in all of the ways that it helps the sport. So I did that until I couldn't, until the job didn't really allow it. But I always want them to do their best. and I tell athletes all the time that don't be afraid of the judges. the the people who are sitting there in the chair, when you, when you go to raise your hand to me, my biggest hope for you is that you do your very best job and that I am evaluating how you are at your best. And and I'm on your side. Gina Pongetti: Yeah, a a full a full hit series would Liz Crandall-Howell: I'm not, I'm not on one person's side, I'm on everybody's side. And I want to see people competing at their at the very highest level. and so being able to put myself in that situation, I think it helps my coaching because I'm always thinking in terms of building the best chance for my athletes to succeed. and so and like understanding that if everybody sitting in the chair is a human being too. So like there is implicit bias in just the way that we see things. So I love getting feedback from all different kinds of people because I might have an opinion. the way I see it, but I'm only one set of eyes. And I'm not the one who's necessarily going to be sitting in the chair. So I want s Gina Pongetti: Well, and that's even i Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: the endless amounts of feedback to know how you might see it because it might teach me something that I don't see. I know that I am really Gina Pongetti: Or someone likes fast gymnastics or someone likes there's different things. Liz Crandall-Howell: I, I I releve and pointed feet are a thing to me that I know that that's going to stand out to me right away. Like a body line, somebody's like Those things are something that we're particular about. Justin is also very particular about that. That's probably why we continue dating. We're Gina Pongetti: Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: like, yay. Just kidding, but but not really. Gina Pongetti: You can only like not us competitive people. No. What are you talking about? No. Yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: but but yeah, like I I know that there are certain things that I'm probably harder on than other people, like casting to a handstand or like the angle of a bail. Like there there are certain things that are very particular, but but yeah, like all judges have implicit bias built in, not because they are intending to, but just because we're human. Gina Pongetti: Sure. Sure. Liz Crandall-Howell: And so even being able to be in the world where collaboration happens, that we talk about those things, be it with other elite coaches or other elite judges and other co other judges from around the world, that's like all of those things help me understand what I'm doing more. And so like that's something that's really been helpful. Gina Pongetti: But that's also why the panels, panels at Worlds and panels at the Olympics have representatives from every continent, every country, because there are certain ways of doing gymnastics that traditionally look different in China, in Russia, in Canada, in US, et cetera. Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: And to have all of those different opinions, again, opinion is the wrong word because from an artistry perspective and things that do allow you to give credit in ranges, there are people that Liz Crandall-Howell: It's more like pref preferences. you might have a certain preference. Mm-hmm. And Gina Pongetti: Preference, sure. And it's nice to have all the preferences. So now that we get back into having all these preferences, we go into Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: the conversation that we just don't have enough people judging. And and for those of you that don't know, in order to get to be in that brevet, FIG category, you you have to have been world Olympic, etc., to shoe right into that that level into kind of Liz Crandall-Howell: That's changing a l a little bit, but there's still a level that is expected of Gina Pongetti: Of yeah. Liz Crandall-Howell: where what levels you've either coached or competed at or judged. Gina Pongetti: Right. And I think sitting in the chair, as you said earlier, it is incredibly important from an empathy perspective to know what the athletes are going through and not to have some someone, you know, willy-nilly that doesn't understand how hard it is to actually hit a perfect handstand, you know, be in that chair. So so with the differences in requirements. What do you think that Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: we need to do as a country to really encourage some of our current national team members, maybe from the last five years, who are in careers where they have some flexibility to get into judging and representing the US? Liz Crandall-Howell: Well, it is it's a lot of hard work and preparing and studying for the exam, every exam is hard. It it takes a lot of time and that you're not like it's not about money. Like that and that's a that's something that is difficult, is that this is not a job that you do because you're making a bajillion dollars doing it. It's y you don't you basically make enough to to be at a meet. and to get your food and but you're not you no one is making a a financial career out of out of judging. and so with the expectations and I think that this is especially true in the United States where things are expensive. Like life is expensive having kids and a life and it you know in your house and all the things that we have to do like there there are things that that you have to sacrifice. if this is the direction that you want to go. J similarly to if you're an elite you're not there are not elite coaches out there generally who are Gina Pongetti: Right. Liz Crandall-Howell: making a million dollars coaching elites. Gina Pongetti: Nor are those of us that work with the Olympics. It's you want to make money, work pro sports. Don't work Olympics. Yeah. So are you on the side Liz Crandall-Howell: Yeah, and it's a it's a little bit of a labor of love and and a passion. Gina Pongetti: of increasing, of of increasing and finding ways to reimburse and make it more worth people's while to do it? Liz Crandall-Howell: I think that there's gotta be a balance there. and and an understanding of there's probably a lot of people who would love to do it, and it's just not something that's possible for them. And and even things like, okay, so you have young children and you've gotta be away, you know, you're gonna go to a training camp for this many days, like you've gotta have enough money to make the childcare that you're gonna pay Gina Pongetti: Balance up. Liz Crandall-Howell: for while you're gone. worthwhile. And I and so that's a hard thing. We might be missing some of those people. I mean, and even, you know, for me, like going into the college coaching world versus when I was coaching club, I have less flexibility now than I did when I was coaching club because I have people depending on me here that I absolutely there this my my schedule is a little bit more set in stone, less flexible here than it was before. And you're also in the same, the the college world doesn't like it when you're working for a university, you don't have the same expectations that you do when you're working for, a a club that's also producing elites, that it also helps them. if you're a judge in a club that's trying to produce elites, it helps them to have a judge going out and doing assignments and bringing that information back where they're trying to train elites, like that. So there there is a little bit more support there. Gina Pongetti: Well, it also it also helps the crafting of the routine. Like you said, the net negative, net positive aspect of things to really make to do those pieces. So while going going into LA, we Liz Crandall-Howell: Right. But I think it makes it better. Yeah, the athletes are definitely the athletes who have coaches who are judging definitely have a benefit because they're they're there Gina Pongetti: Absolutely. Liz Crandall-Howell: all the time. And when they're choosing routine construction, the even the timeline of how fast they turn around a decision is faster. You know, like I'm going Gina Pongetti: Right. Understood. Liz Crandall-Howell: down the I'm going down this road, I think I'm gonna get this combination, whatever, and then I learn. I'm at two meets, that's not getting credited. you're gonna have to make it look like this if you're want gonna want to get credit that you immediately come back and you're like, okay, nope. Whereas you might not get that information funneled to you for a month, longer, maybe, depending on who you are, how many meets you've gone to, who you're talking to, you might not have access to that information. Whereas if you have a judge in your building, that's a lot faster. Gina Pongetti: Love it. Well, thank you, Liz, for this awesome conversation. we covered a ton of topics, obviously, with all the hats that Liz Crandall-Howell: We did. Gina Pongetti: you wear. so thanks for spending the time. What I'll take from this is that elite and college both don't have to be a choice. You should take care of your athletes. College season can be what it takes to get back onto the world stage. And as Liz Crandall-Howell: Mm-hmm. Gina Pongetti: Liz says, be one day better. that's our show. One thing to carry out of today is ask a program or a gym who is in the room when someone gets hurt. The answer usually tells you everything. Ask your coaches what kind of education they have with judging. It might help the routines. You never know. New episodes of the MedGym podcast come out every other week. Every episode, the show notes and our practitioner directory are at medgym.net. Follow the show wherever you are listening. And if this was useful, send it to the one coach or parent who needs it. We are YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and anywhere that you find your podcasts. I'm Gina Pongetti Angeletti. Take care of the athlete, not just the routine. Prevent, treat, perform, and we will see you next time.